Newbie Question Re: FG and Secondary Fermenter

[SCBeerDude]

The backstory -

I brewed an American IPA on 1/9/10. Extract w/specialty grains, 5 gallons. OG was supposed to be about 1.068, but it ended up being 1.061. Paranoid from my last batch (a Guinness clone that ended up at 3.5% ABV), I pitched one liquid (WLP001)and one dry yeast (Nottingham) with some nutrients. Fermentation was vigorous for 3 days, and had slowed to 1 per minute or less as of yesterday. Before racking it to my secondary yesterday (1/16/10), I checked the gravity and it was 1.020. FG is supposed to end up at around 1.015. Ambient temperature surrounding my fermenter is around 70 and consistent throughout the day - I doubt that it fluctuates more than 3-4 degrees.

My questions -

Can I expect the gravity to continue to drop a few more points over the next two weeks in the secondary?

If not, should I pitch a bit more yeast into the secondary?

Thanks in advance!

[brahn]

Yes, you can expect it to drop a few more points over the next week or two. FG is hard to predict and it looks like you're right on track to me. The FG printed on recipe kits is an educated guess by the kit maker and I don't think I ever saw it come out exactly when I was extract brewing. I always had a hard time getting high levels of attenuation from extracts.

[SCBeerDude]

Yes, you can expect it to drop a few more points over the next week or two. FG is hard to predict and it looks like you're right on track to me. The FG printed on recipe kits is an educated guess by the kit maker and I don't think I ever saw it come out exactly when I was extract brewing. I always had a hard time getting high levels of attenuation from extracts.

Thank you for the input! That is good news. This is my first non-kit beer - I used the BrewPal app for the iPhone to put it together - so I'll be extra-proud if it ends up as I hope.

[brahn]

I'm sure it will turn out fine (or better!) Most brewing software is generally equally bad at estimating FG as kits. In most brewing software the number is strictly based on the yeast you use and it's expected apparent attenuation. It doesn't take anything like the fermentability of different ingredients or mash temperature/schedule into account when estimating the FG. Getting to a desired FG is really more about learning how your system and ingredients work together than about what the brewing software tells you it "should" be.

[SCBeerDude]

I'm sure it will turn out fine (or better!) Most brewing software is generally equally bad at estimating FG as kits. In most brewing software the number is strictly based on the yeast you use and it's expected apparent attenuation. It doesn't take anything like the fermentability of different ingredients or mash temperature/schedule into account when estimating the FG. Getting to a desired FG is really more about learning how your system and ingredients work together than about what the brewing software tells you it "should" be.

Thank you!

[bwarbiany]

I always had trouble hitting FG when I brewed extract. Not sure if it was process or ingredients, though, as I switched from extract to all-grain after about 7 batches. But I always ended up too high on FG.

Are you boiling the full amount, or partial boil? Do you do any of the "late extract" methods? How do you chill the wort after the boil? What temp are you pitching at? Are you controlling fermentation temps? All of these things could have something to do with it.

Overall, rather than buying one vial of WLP001, I'd buy 2-3 packs of SafAle US-05. One of the worries for most beginning brewers is underpitching yeast. With 2 or 3 yeast packets, you know you'll be just fine.

[SCBeerDude]

I always had trouble hitting FG when I brewed extract. Not sure if it was process or ingredients, though, as I switched from extract to all-grain after about 7 batches. But I always ended up too high on FG.

Are you boiling the full amount, or partial boil? Do you do any of the "late extract" methods? How do you chill the wort after the boil? What temp are you pitching at? Are you controlling fermentation temps? All of these things could have something to do with it.

Overall, rather than buying one vial of WLP001, I'd buy 2-3 packs of SafAle US-05. One of the worries for most beginning brewers is underpitching yeast. With 2 or 3 yeast packets, you know you'll be just fine.

Thanks for the input! Some answers -

Are you boiling the full amount, or partial boil?

Typically, I do a partial. This time, I tried for full. I still ended up about a gallon short, IIRC.

Do you do any of the "late extract" methods?

I added a bit of liquid malt with 10 minutes to go, sort of per Palmer. I am still not clear on what advantage this method offers.

How do you chill the wort after the boil?

Immersion wort chiller. Takes about 15 minutes.

What temp are you pitching at?

79 degrees this time.

Are you controlling fermentation temps?

Only insofar as my fermenter sits in a dark closet in a dark room. Temp ranges from 67-72 or so, with no rapid fluctuations.

Overall, rather than buying one vial of WLP001, I'd buy 2-3 packs of SafAle US-05. One of the worries for most beginning brewers is underpitching yeast. With 2 or 3 yeast packets, you know you'll be just fine.

Prior to this batch, I never pitched more than 1 package of WLP001. I definately saw a larger yeast cake and more active fermentation this go-round using 2 yeast additions. I've never used SafAle, but will look into it.

A final question - while I enjoy my brews, when comparing to professional stuff, I can always tell that mine is the homebrew. It is as if something is missing that I cannot put my finger on - like the ingredients are not fully melded together and the mouth feel is not as full. Is that the all grain difference?

[JonGoku]

Overall, rather than buying one vial of WLP001, I'd buy 2-3 packs of SafAle US-05. One of the worries for most beginning brewers is underpitching yeast. With 2 or 3 yeast packets, you know you'll be just fine.

You pitch 2 to 3 dry yeast packs in a 5 gallon batch or are you talking about 10 gallon batches? According to Mr.Malty yeast pitch calculator for a 5.25 gallon batch, you should use 2 packs for a beer with a 1.120 OG (thats huge!). So while for a 1.080 OG beer that calls for 1.4 packs I would use 2 whole packs and say so what, but wouldn't 3 packs be a wee bit over pitching or are you brewing such monsters that would require that much?

Anyways from what I have read the over pitching of yeast is really only a bad thing if you want to reuse the same yeast (i.e. wash the yeast, or re-pitch on the cake) since it could possible ferment out before the yeast would have gone through a whole growth cycle. Additionally as yeast produce esters and phenols and other flavor points more in the grow cycle you could be reducing the amount of these in your end product (which depending on style or goal could be a good thing or bad thing).

[tylking]

There's a test that we run at the Bruery on every batch to help determine the terminal gravity of the beer. The Forced Ferment test will tell you the absolute terminal gravity (or very close to) of the brew, it can also identify if a "stuck" ferment is from brewhouse operations or a poor fermentation. Take about 500ml of wort while you are racking into your fermenter (you need enough wort to fill a hydrometer jar without carrying over any yeast) and put it in a 1000ml+ flask, over pitch it with 5g dry yeast and put it on a stir plate (or shake it as often as possible!) In about 72 hours it should have completed fermention and flocculated (if you shake it by hand it might take longer), decant the liquid off the yeast and take a gravity reading - This is your terminal gravity. If your main ferment doesn't come close to this number you have a yeast issue, if the forced ferment is higher than what you expected than you have a brewhouse issue.

As for pitching rates I'm on the under pitching side.

[JonGoku]

There's a test that we run at the Bruery on every batch to help determine the terminal gravity of the beer. The Forced Ferment test will tell you the absolute terminal gravity (or very close to) of the brew, it can also identify if a "stuck" ferment is from brewhouse operations or a poor fermentation. Take about 500ml of wort while you are racking into your fermenter (you need enough wort to fill a hydrometer jar without carrying over any yeast) and put it in a 1000ml+ flask, over pitch it with 5g dry yeast and put it on a stir plate (or shake it as often as possible!) In about 72 hours it should have completed fermention and flocculated (if you shake it by hand it might take longer), decant the liquid off the yeast and take a gravity reading - This is your terminal gravity. If your main ferment doesn't come close to this number you have a yeast issue, if the forced ferment is higher than what you expected than you have a brewhouse issue.

As for pitching rates I'm on the under pitching side.

Awesome idea, and I have a mason jar in the fridge from my Sunday brew, I wonder if I should try this for shits and giggles.

[bwarbiany]

Typically, I do a partial. This time, I tried for full. I still ended up about a gallon short, IIRC.

Partial is one thing that makes it tough to hit the "right" flavor, as your boil is far more concentrated than most. This affects hop utilization, tends towards darker beer, etc.

I added a bit of liquid malt with 10 minutes to go, sort of per Palmer. I am still not clear on what advantage this method offers.

Largely it helps avoid some of the problems with partial boils, because then your boil isn't over-concentrated.

79 degrees this time.

Yikes. That's something to work on. Try to get that lower. The first phase of fermentation is the "replication" phase of the yeast, and you're running a bit hot.

Only insofar as my fermenter sits in a dark closet in a dark room. Temp ranges from 67-72 or so, with no rapid fluctuations.

Remember that the fermenting beer may be a fair bit hotter than the ambient room temp. You want (for most ales) the actual fermentation to occur in maybe 64-68 degrees. You're definitely on the hot side.

A final question - while I enjoy my brews, when comparing to professional stuff, I can always tell that mine is the homebrew. It is as if something is missing that I cannot put my finger on - like the ingredients are not fully melded together and the mouth feel is not as full. Is that the all grain difference?

I wouldn't call it the all-grain difference. I once brewed an extract clone of Sierra Nevada that came out so close to the original that my wife's friends (who all went to college at Chico State) couldn't tell the difference. It's more a process/practice thing than anything else.

[bwarbiany]

Overall, rather than buying one vial of WLP001, I'd buy 2-3 packs of SafAle US-05. One of the worries for most beginning brewers is underpitching yeast. With 2 or 3 yeast packets, you know you'll be just fine.

You pitch 2 to 3 dry yeast packs in a 5 gallon batch or are you talking about 10 gallon batches? According to Mr.Malty yeast pitch calculator for a 5.25 gallon batch, you should use 2 packs for a beer with a 1.120 OG (thats huge!). So while for a 1.080 OG beer that calls for 1.4 packs I would use 2 whole packs and say so what, but wouldn't 3 packs be a wee bit over pitching or are you brewing such monsters that would require that much?

I don't concern myself with overpitching. Typically if I'm brewing a 10-gallon batch I'll probably pitch 3-4 (more if it's high gravity) packs. Usually at least one more than "recommended".

For 5 gallons I'd probably recommend 2 packs, unless it's high gravity, in which I'd recommend three.

After all, 3 packs of dry yeast is about the same price as 1 vial of liquid, and you don't have to make a starter.

[SCBeerDude]

Typically, I do a partial. This time, I tried for full. I still ended up about a gallon short, IIRC.

Partial is one thing that makes it tough to hit the "right" flavor, as your boil is far more concentrated than most. This affects hop utilization, tends towards darker beer, etc.

I added a bit of liquid malt with 10 minutes to go, sort of per Palmer. I am still not clear on what advantage this method offers.

Largely it helps avoid some of the problems with partial boils, because then your boil isn't over-concentrated.

79 degrees this time.

Yikes. That's something to work on. Try to get that lower. The first phase of fermentation is the "replication" phase of the yeast, and you're running a bit hot.

Only insofar as my fermenter sits in a dark closet in a dark room. Temp ranges from 67-72 or so, with no rapid fluctuations.

Remember that the fermenting beer may be a fair bit hotter than the ambient room temp. You want (for most ales) the actual fermentation to occur in maybe 64-68 degrees. You're definitely on the hot side.

A final question - while I enjoy my brews, when comparing to professional stuff, I can always tell that mine is the homebrew. It is as if something is missing that I cannot put my finger on - like the ingredients are not fully melded together and the mouth feel is not as full. Is that the all grain difference?

I wouldn't call it the all-grain difference. I once brewed an extract clone of Sierra Nevada that came out so close to the original that my wife's friends (who all went to college at Chico State) couldn't tell the difference. It's more a process/practice thing than anything else.

Thanks, Brad. I can definitely improve the full boil, late malt addition, and pitching temperature issues. On the fermenting temperature issue, I may have to do the wet t-shirt method. Can't hurt, right?

[SCBeerDude]

Cheers!

ooohhh . . .very nice! Looks like I need to make a run to Lowes for a tub.

[SCBeerDude]

Update: Bottled the IPA on Saturday. FG was 1.020. Estimated alc. content is 5.4%, which is below BJCP standards for an IPA. Admittedly, I did not take the FG reading until after I added my priming sugar. Could that have impacted the reading?

So, to recap, gravities were supposed to be at 1.069 and 1.015, but ended up being 1.061 and 1.020.

This seems to be becoming a recurring problem for me. I am starting to think that until and if I go all grain, in addition to lowering my fermentation temp by a few degrees, I am going to have to add additional sugar to the boil and a second pitch of yeast when I rack to the secondary. That might get SG and FG closer to target.