what went wrong with my stout?

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what went wrong with my stout?

Postby nico soze on Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:55 am

5 gallon batch
3 lbs light dme
3 lbs amber dme
1 lb pale chocolate malt
1 lb midnight wheat
.5lb rolled oat
.5lb crystal 120
1 oz magnum @ 60min
1 whirlfloc 15
5tsp yeast nutrient 10
.75 lb malto dextrin 10
1 full abuelita coin (5min) (cocoa + sugar=abuelita)
safale05
4oz cocao nibs secndary

For those of you who tasted my taint last night, HOW did this recipe turn into what I was serving? How was it not thick and rich and creamy and dark?
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby backyard brewer on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:02 am

I wasn't there to taste it, but wheat and oats should be mashed. They won't contribute anything but starch haze when steeped.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby 3rdto1st on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:36 am

Could you point me to a good definition of steeped vs mashed? I think I may have made this problem with my stout as well.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby bwarbiany on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:43 am

3rdto1st wrote:Could you point me to a good definition of steeped vs mashed? I think I may have made this problem with my stout as well.


If you're doing BIAB, and using *any* base malt with diastatic power (2-row, pilsner, etc), then you're mashing. If you're only putting specialty malt into a pot without any base malt, you're steeping.

Crystal malts can be steeped -- I believe the kilning process basically converts the starches into sugars (someone correct me if I'm wrong here). Other malts that are unconverted and don't have any of their own diastatic power (i.e. enough of or the right kind of enzymes to convert their starches to sugars) require that you add malts that have sufficient diastatic power -- i.e. you need to mash.

But if you're doing BIAB, this isn't your problem with a stout.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby nico soze on Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:50 am

I was figuring that the midnight wheat would get me black just from steeping, and the malto would thicken and sweeten But I ended up with a brown thin dry beer.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby 3rdto1st on Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:51 pm

I got all the stuff about diastatic power, I just didn't know it was the difference between mashing and steeping. Little bit of an OT question, but why would you steep?
Brewing soon: KtG
Primary :
Secondary: Sucaba clone (on oak soaked in EC12)
Kegs: Kate the just OK, English SMASH

Gals brewed '11: 50
Gals brewed '12: 50
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby jward on Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:45 pm

3rdto1st wrote:why would you steep?

If one is making an extract beer steeping can add charater from the steeped grains. If you are mashing they go in the mash, no point in steeping.

Nick, did you mill the grain? Was it well crushed? You might crush your darkest malt in a coffee grinder to increase the extraction.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby bwarbiany on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:16 pm

Here's a good explanation in Palmer about steeping:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter13-2.html

You do actually extract sugars from the grains that can be steeped, but as you can see there are several malts that are not able to be steeped.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby nico soze on Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:22 pm

It was milled all together in Eric's old 2 roller mill except the oats which I just added whole And steeped at 152 for an hour And then "dunk sparged" many times.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby lexuschris on Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:36 pm

Steeping is just soaking specialty malts in hot water to extract the carmelized sugars and color.

Mashing requires enzymes from malted base-malts (diastatic power rates their enzyme level) at specific tempratures for an amount of time to convert the starches in the grain to fermentable & non-fermentable dextrins.

Mini-mash is just when you do a small portion of base-malt & specialty malts at the right temprature & time, and the rest being DME/LME.

For stouts, I've always thought that roasted barley is an important part of the recipe... but I think it might depend on the stout sub-style as well as personal preferences.

Wish I had been there to give it a taste for some better feedback. :)
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby BrewMasterBrad on Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:44 am

Black patent has always been a key ingredient in my stouts. I agree with the others that the wheat and oats are not much use in an extract beer since they must be mashed to be converted.

Did you really use 5tsp of yeast nutrient in five gallons? I don't know what yeast nutrient you are using, but that seems excessive. I use have used White Labs and Wyeast and both of those, I believe, suggest a half teaspoon per 5 gallons.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby JonW on Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:08 pm

It's probably the Crosby & Baker stuff. I bought that once when I was out of the Wyeast nutrient and I didn't read the dosing instructions until I was ready to use it. Needless to say, I was not about to put 10 tsp into my 10 gallon batch! I don't remember how much I put in, but I threw the stuff away after that one batch.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby bwarbiany on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:27 pm

backyard brewer wrote:I wasn't there to taste it, but wheat and oats should be mashed. They won't contribute anything but starch haze when steeped.


I just looked at the Briess pdf for Midnight Wheat, and it's in the 550L range. That's plenty dark. Does it really need to be mashed, or does it follow the same sort of logic as the kilned barley malts (Crystal, Roasted, Black Patent etc) that can simply be steeped. Obviously the oats still need to be mashed, but at only .5#, I doubt we can call a lack of mashing the issue with this recipe.

The notes from Briess suggest that it's a replacement for debittered black malt -- so while I might not like it for a stout (because I like the big roast flavor), it should definitely get a beer to a pretty dark color. A pound of 550L coupled with a pound of 200L pale chocolate in 5 gallons should get you to a full on black beer.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby bwarbiany on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:30 pm

nico soze wrote:safale05

For those of you who tasted my taint last night, HOW did this recipe turn into what I was serving? How was it not thick and rich and creamy and dark?


Safale US-05 is a beast. It will attenuate VERY strongly. Did you measure OG and FG?

What temp did you pitch? What temp did you ferment it at?

I attributed many of the problems with most of my early beers (thin and lacking body) to be related to fermentation temp issues -- pitching too hot and fermenting too hot. Couple that with a beast of a yeast like US-05, and you might have your problem.
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Re: what went wrong with my stout?

Postby nico soze on Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:46 pm

Yes Crosby and Baker. Its the only one Ive ever used. Not sure about ferm temp but warm. Low to mid 70s. Ferm chamber is my current project
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