No early additions, so boil steeping water for 60 mins?

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No early additions, so boil steeping water for 60 mins?

Postby nevery on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:21 am

Hi guys!
I have a recipe that has steeped grains and 30min hop additions... Can I just boil for 30 mins adding hops at the start or do I have to boil the steeping water for 30 mins first, then 30min hop? I just can't imagine why one would boil the steeping water for 30 mins, yet the recipe says 60min boil?

And if I changed to 15min (or less) hopping and no steeped grains, would I only need a 15 mins boil! Something about a 15 fricken' minute boil sounds awesome for those late night brew sessions.

(sorry for n00b questions.)

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Re: No early additions, so boil steeping water for 60 mins?

Postby brahn on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:33 am

There are other things going on in the boil besides sterilization and extraction of hop bitterness. A couple examples are reduction in SMM (the precursor to DMS, which makes beer taste like cooked corn), coagulation of proteins and melanoidin reactions.

To answer your question, could you get by with 30 minutes? Maybe, I've never tried it.

For some more details, check out this page and search for "boiling wort". http://www.bjcp.org/study.php
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Re: No early additions, so boil steeping water for 60 mins?

Postby nevery on Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:36 am

Very cool. Thanks brahn! Will do.

(now go to bed... :wink: lol)

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Re: No early additions, so boil steeping water for 60 mins?

Postby bwarbiany on Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:57 am

I know a lot of extract brewers do the "late extract" method, where they add a little bit of extract at the beginning of the boil, and the rest with ~15 minutes left. They do this because for the *extract* portion of their wort, they're often trying to avoid things like maillard reactions which could further darken their wort. However, they usually do add a little bit of extract to the beginning of their boil to help with hop extraction (the hop oils are isomerized better in a liquid that has some sugar rather than just water).

How much specialty grains do you have? What type of grains are they? I'd say for most steeped grains, you probably don't have *that* much DMS to worry about. If it was a partial-mash batch with some pilsner, maybe, but not just steeping some crystal or roasted grains. So I think you'd probably be fine with 30 minutes, especially if you can keep the boil rather vigorous to drive off as much of the DMS as possible.

FYI do you have a wort chiller? IMHO that will do a lot more to reduce the time of your brew day than cutting time off the boil, and slow cooling can actually lead to more DMS formation, so if you're interest is improving beer quality (and I think it is for all of us), you'd be better off for both time and quality by improving your wort chilling time.

That being said, I'm an engineer, not a scientist. My answer may be "close enough for gov't work", but someone else with a chemistry background could easily prove me wrong here...
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Re: No early additions, so boil steeping water for 60 mins?

Postby nevery on Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:48 pm

Thanks for the detailed reply!

bwarbiany wrote:they usually do add a little bit of extract to the beginning of their boil to help with hop extraction (the hop oils are isomerized better in a liquid that has some sugar rather than just water).

I didn't know that hop oils extracted better with sugar, so that's awesome to know. But with no hops until the 30 min mark, there's nothing to extract?

bwarbiany wrote:How much specialty grains do you have? What type of grains are they?

Chocolate Malt, Crystal 10L, and Flaked Barley; each at 4oz.

bwarbiany wrote:I'd say for most steeped grains, you probably don't have *that* much DMS to worry about. If it was a partial-mash batch with some pilsner, maybe, but not just steeping some crystal or roasted grains.

Anyone know of a chart or something that lists which malts/grains are susceptible to DMS (have high SSM) or which grains are steepable or must be mashed? I'd like to compile one, if not.

bwarbiany wrote:FYI do you have a wort chiller?

Unfortunately, no. I intend on making one soon, though. I bought an oxygen aeration wand (primarily for yeast propagation) and I'm making a stir plate so I'm broke for a little bit. Speaking of which, I found a way to make a pretty awesome stir plate for hella cheap and I'd like to show the club. Almost no assembly required, unlike the cigar box or project box method, and this involves only glue.

bwarbiany wrote:[...] you'd be better off for both time and quality by improving your wort chilling time.

Indeed and you're right. Right now I water bath and introduce frozen 2-liters after 100°... Takes forever, lol. Haven't had a DMS problem yet (only 2 batches), but I've only steeped and also left the mash paddle in during cooling to prop the lid up and counter-stir the wort opposite of the water.

I was also very impressed by the results of Arrogant Dan's whirlpool hopping and wondered if it were possible to 15 minute boil with whirlpool hops only without any major problems. That with a plate chiller and no steeped or partial mash grains would make an easy (and tasty) 1-hour IPA, from start to pitch.

bwarbiany wrote:My answer may be "close enough for gov't work"[...]
ROFL

Thanks again! :)

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Re: No early additions, so boil steeping water for 60 mins?

Postby bwarbiany on Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:09 am

Yes, if the hops are extracted better in sugar solution, the hops themselves would not be a reason to extend your boil beyond 30 minutes if your hop schedule didn't call for it.

Info on DMS: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... l_sulfides

Again, I'm not an expert on that part of the subject, and I've moved from 60 minute boils to 90 minute boils for various reasons (all-grain system, not extract). But what I gather is that SMM & DMS are part of the kilning process.

That means that your Chocolate malt and crystal 10L will have some SMM/DMS. I'm pretty sure the flaked wheat is *never* kilned, so it probably doesn't have any.

Yet at 4 oz each, I don't think these are anywhere near enough of your total fermentables to matter from a DMS perspective. So I'm guessing you'd boil off enough DMS in your 30 minute boil to take care of it.

More concerning is cooling. That link points out that DMS will continue to form in the cooling process, as long as the wort is above 140 degrees. So the faster you can get the wort below 140 degrees, the better. I'd say this is more important than your boil duration, at least for extract + specialty grains brewing.
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