Adventures in brewing with a new system ...

[dhempy]

So after a long hiatus, I am officially back to brewing as of yesterday. With lots of guidance from Derrin and Jon, I now have an all stainless, 20 gallon brutus type of system with 3 burners, 3 pumps, 9 electronic valves, a BCS 462, embedded PC, and 20" touchscreen. The road to get here was long and that is the subject for another story. I'll get some pics up later .. I am still cleaning up this morning.

So I brewed the club trippel yesterday and it is fermenting nicely at 65 degrees this morning. Everything went pretty well until the boil ... when I overshot volume by about a gallon. No biggie, just boil a bit longer. But the programming wasn't quite right for that so I switched over to manual controls .. again no big deal ... completed the boil ... time to cool. Now all hell breaks loose. First, my HLT has an embedded SS coil for heat exchange (I use HERMS) so for cooling, I empty the HLT, fill with water first, ice later, and pump hot wort through the same coil used for mash temp control. During the last 10 minutes of boil, I sanitize this system by pumping boiling wort through (no cooling fluid in HLT) for 10 minutes.

More background .. since I don't have my hop spider yet, I bagged the 2 hop additions. Also, my boil pot has a convex bottom with the pickup in the side of the pot so that whirlpooled trub winds up away from the pickup.The boil pot also has a tangential return that makes whirlpooling "automatic" when the pump is on. So I noticed that there was no whirlpool going in the Boil Pot as I started cooling. First I thought to open the return end and forgot to close the manual valve on the pot. Hands now burned, cussing starts. Finally reconfig to test to see if pump can push the wort. No flow. I have the new high flow impellers but haven't installed yet ... more cussing. Finally figure out that wort isn't exiting the pot ... go fishing in pot ... find one hop bag but not the other ... Light bulb! Fish around the exit port and finally extract the other bag ... it was wedged in the port. OK .... while I have things apart, gotta try out the Brewer's Hardware trub filter ... being optimistic, I put the fine screen on .. after all, hops were bagged and I vorlaufed the wort and sparge. I saw some break material in the wort so I figured I'd clean some of it out while cooling. Cooling starts, temps starts dropping ... woo hoo ... oops celebrated too early ... cooling stops, pump not pumping ... more cussing. Gotta be the trub filter ... sure enough, fine screen is caked with what looks like thick cake batter ... more cussing ... clean, sanitize, reassemble ... that has to be all of the trub right? ... Start boil pump and blow GFI ... more cussing .. must've gotten the pump wet with hose after cleaning up spilled wort. Dry, start, progress! Whew. Start HLT pump (which circulates water around coils for efficiency) ... blow GFI ... (you know what happens next) Dry, cooling restarts, temps dropping .. then stop again ... trub filter taken out of system, restart and finally get to 70 degrees after 3 hours of screwing around. Push wort to conical, aerate with O2, pitch yeast ... too heavy to safely lift into ferm fridge (back to cussing) ... get just enough help from SWMBO to get it lifted and now to do minimal cleanup ... 11:30pm ... now 10+ hours into brewday.

Kind of humorous now but not so much late last night. All in all I did enjoy working with the new system ... it'll take several brew sessions to get all of the kinks and procedures worked out to avoid another session like last night and I still have some other things to do ... like add inline O2, and reconfig some of the plumbing to be more efficient. Plus the new high flow impellers need to be installed (which means I have to disassemble the plumbing I think ... I mounted the pumps, then plumbed ... don't think I can take it apart enough because the pumps are mounted to SS plates with SS studs and most of the plumbing is hard piped SS. I'd cuss but I used all options last night and I hate being redundant.

I am also going to reevaluate my cooling setup and I also need to figure out how best to use the trub filter ... one thing for sure, it does FILTER ... but I probably had the wrong mesh (too fine) .. next time I will try sans mesh and only for pushing to the fermenter.

And yes BrewmasterBrad ... I know that one should KISS ... but the tinkering was just as much fun as using the end result.

Cheers!

Dan

[nevery]

Has anyone every tried a multi-stage filter, wherein the course filter is on the outside, then a medium mesh, then a fine mesh? I wonder if that would allow for a single pass lauter without the need to vorlauf? That's what RO systems do before the final membrane filter.

Your system sounds sick, btw. I feel so inadequate with my 5-gal boil kettle and $7 plastic mash paddle. With all you guys, I feel like I just pulled into a Ferrari convention in a Pontiac Aztec.

Oh, and hey... You forgot to cuss. cussing actually fixes most problems; that's a fact.

[JonW]

Congrats Dan. I know it was a long haul to get there. Looking forward to seeing the finished pics.

[dhempy]

Your system sounds sick, btw. I feel so inadequate with my 5-gal boil kettle and $7 plastic mash paddle. With all you guys, I feel like I just pulled into a Ferrari convention in a Pontiac Aztec.

Oh, and hey... You forgot to cuss. cussing actually fixes most problems; that's a fact.

FYI I was an extract brewer WITHOUT a mash paddle when I started with these guys ... I built my first stand before brutus (it was a 3 pot single tier design) ... learned a lot ... enjoy tinkering (which lead me to my current stand) and cussing (four years as a teamster!) ... BTW ... where exactly did I forget to cuss? Seems like I cussed at most problems which as you mentioned ... tends to lead to the solution.


Dan

[DrDually]

Dan
Are you using the trub filter from Brewers Hardware ( http://www.brewershardware.com/Trub-Filter/ )? I currently use it in conjunction with tri-clover Tee ( http://www.brewershardware.com/1.5-Tri- ... p-Tee.html )and blank cap ( http://www.brewershardware.com/1.5-Tri-Clover-Cap.html ). This allows the filter to completely fill, then I cap the opening. Saves considerable time in priming pumps this way. One thing I have noticed in carboys is "no" hop material with this filter. If you decided to use this filter, the 90 degree tri-clover will not allow trapped air to bleed off and you will definitly have priming issues
You also mentioned hard plumbed lines. Have you thought about using tri-clover or cam-lock with silicon tubing?
If interested in some pics, please PM me

Chris

[bwarbiany]

I now have an all stainless, 20 gallon brutus type of system with 3 burners, 3 pumps, 9 electronic valves, a BCS 462, embedded PC, and 20" touchscreen.

I hope you weren't looking for sympathy after stating this... All I can muster is seething jealousy.

[dhempy]

I hope you weren't looking for sympathy after stating this... All I can muster is seething jealousy.

LOL Nope ... no sympathy .. just trying to "justify" why it took me so long to get a system back into functioning order. I was also just "sharing" with the hopes of preventing others having similar issues and "venting" to get past my brew rage of last night. I managed a few snickers as I was writing about my frustration and it was very "cleansing" for my brew soul.

Dan
Are you using the trub filter from Brewers Hardware
<snip>
You also mentioned hard plumbed lines. Have you thought about using tri-clover or cam-lock with silicon tubing?

If interested in some pics, please PM me
Chris

Yes that is the filter. All of my vertical connections are silicone with tri-clover connections. All of the hard piped plumbing is horizontal and connects the valves. I have a bleed valve below each pump so priming is not an issue (unless of course you suck a hop bag into the inlet). A stainless hop spider coming soon that will solve that issue once and for all.

Would love to see any and all pics .. I can steal ideas from anyone / anywhere / anytime!

The filter does an amazing job. I had the .02 net on it (mistakenly) and it filtered all of what I think was break material (undoubtedly a protein of some sort). My mistakes were 1) using too fine a filter and 2) filtering while cooling versus the single pass to the fermenter. I will rectify those errors on my next batch and see where I wind up. Having the conical makes it easy to dump trub anyhow.

My ferm fridge is on wheels and I _SHOULD_ be able to wheel it back to the brewery so I can pump directly into the fridge and then wheel it back. I also still have carboys and the chest freezer fermenter which I will probably be using for the next batch. The trub filter will be ideal for getting that wort "clean" going in.

I think with the new impellers that everything will flow better / faster and that should help with both mash temp maintenance AND cooling. I'll be looking at "improving" dis-assembly for any future pump maintenance. All of the tri-clover parts are Derrin's big bore fittings so I think it is just a matter of having unobstructed and improved flow to cut my chill time down from 3+ hours to a more normal 30 minutes.

Dan

[DrDually]

Wow! 3 hours to chill...I run hot wort thru filter with no screen directly to plate chiller then inline oxygenation and finally to fermenter. All of this is done running valves wide open which means approx 14 gallons are in fermenter in about 5 minutes and almost ready to pitch yeast.
I am brewing next weekend and will take pics to share if interested

Chris

[dhempy]

Actual chillin time was probably closer to 30-40 minutes ... but still, I think I'd like your setup. It would be great to get to pitching temps right off the bat. Will look forward to pics.

Dan

[bwarbiany]

I run hot wort thru filter with no screen directly to plate chiller then inline oxygenation and finally to fermenter. All of this is done running valves wide open which means approx 14 gallons are in fermenter in about 5 minutes and almost ready to pitch yeast.

What are you running through the plate chiller to get it down that fast? Ice water?

I use the morebeer Chillus Convolutus CFC, and I usually recirc for a while against hose water until I'm down to ~120 in the boil kettle. I then (in the summer) run against ice water into the fermenter. Depending on flow rate, I can get into the 50's pretty easily with the ice water (and if I'm doing a lager, I recirc longer and slow the flow into the fermenter -- I pitched my O'fest last year at 43 degrees).

But I haven't had the balls to try running 200+ degree wort straight through the chiller direct into the fermenter -- even with ice water going the other way...

[lexuschris]

Dan, Congrats on your inaugural brew on your new rig!! The system sounds amazing! Very much looking forward to some photos!

Also glad to hear I'm not the only one who goes through a crazy ass long brewday on a new rig! Trial by fire ... or is that by beer! I'm doing my 4th brew on my new stand Labor Day weekend, and I hope to get down to the sub 8-hour category... still working on my manual hose-switching memory and trying to better plan the extra time it takes reach boil on my 10-gal batches.

I run hot wort thru filter with no screen directly to plate chiller then inline oxygenation and finally to fermenter. All of this is done running valves wide open which means approx 14 gallons are in fermenter in about 5 minutes and almost ready to pitch yeast.

What are you running through the plate chiller to get it down that fast? Ice water?

When doing my research for a plate chiller, I ran accross this great chart at dudadiesel.com. I couldn't believe the times that are possible with a large enough plate chiller. When I did my first run with my chiller, I figure I'd have to recirculate until I hit pitching temps. So I just held the output hose back into the BK and tenatively put my sanitized finger in the outflow... room temp in 1 pass. Wow!

I now just go straight into the fermenter from the plate chiller. My garden hose will output 10 gpm, so I just try to keep my pump out valve at about halfway to slow the wort flow down. During the summer, that drops it down to the high 70's, so I usually put the fermenter in an ice bath while I clean up a few things, then pitch when it is a bit lower.

I'll have to work on something for lagers... Probably put my old IWC inbetween the plate chiller and hose spigot, sitting in a tub of ice water. That should chill the water down a bit, but I'd want to be sure and keep my high flow rate... We'll have to work on that next year sometime..

--LexusChris

[DrDually]

What are you running through the plate chiller to get it down that fast? Ice water?

I use the morebeer Chillus Convolutus CFC, and I usually recirc for a while against hose water until I'm down to ~120 in the boil kettle. I then (in the summer) run against ice water into the fermenter. Depending on flow rate, I can get into the 50's pretty easily with the ice water (and if I'm doing a lager, I recirc longer and slow the flow into the fermenter -- I pitched my O'fest last year at 43 degrees).

But I haven't had the balls to try running 200+ degree wort straight through the chiller direct into the fermenter -- even with ice water going the other way...

I am using the Blichman plate chiller with tap water. Worth every penny in my opinion

[JonW]

I am using the Blichman plate chiller with tap water. Worth every penny in my opinion

Ditto....same setup. My ground water is pretty warm this time of year so I start off by recirculating back into the BK for about 10 minutes, then when I see the temp coming out of the chiller in the mid 70's, I go into the fermenter. Since I ferment in a refrigerator, it gets it down to pitching temp in an hour or so. During the winter, my temps come out of the chiller at pitching temp.

[dhempy]

Nice ... when I visited Munich a couple of years ago ... I got the lager bug ... and having watched BrewmasterBrad chill to lager pitching temps on a club brewday, that is my ultimate goal with the new system. So now I am thinking about maybe putting a plate chiller inline BEFORE I go to the HLT filled with ice ... it would be single pass and if the exit temp from the plate chiller was 80 or less I'll bet I could get sub 60 outbound of the HLT stainless coil .. if not doing a lager then I could bypass the iced HLT.

Most of my system has tri-clover fittings ... is there room on the Therminator to put TC fittings and still get the hose attached? .... maybe if I dropped a 45" elbow pointing away from the garden hose fittings? Does the orientation of the chiller matter?

Been watching my Club Trippel ferment away ... raised the temp to 66 today (from 65) ... and realized that I've got another challenge to overcome if I pump into the conical as it sits in the fridge .... pitching! I'm not sure there is enough room to open the hatch let alone dump an Erlenmeyer ... so I either have to pump and lift or put the yeast in first and then pump onto it. I would have to be sure that temps were good in that case. Or find a way to pump / push up to 4L of yeast into the conical. I may have to create something to do a CO2 push ... or maybe an O2 push.

Dan

[bwarbiany]

Dammit, people. Now I'm gonna have to buy a thermometer to go inline on the output of my CFC. It's something I've probably needed for a long time, but I can see this being very useful to actually hitting target pitch temps and reducing brewday time.

I wonder if I can get my brewday under 4 hours with a 90 minute boil, if I continue my current path of using hot tap water for strike/HLT and improve my cooling time...