Flanders Red critique anyone?

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Rezzin
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Flanders Red critique anyone?

Post by Rezzin »

So I'm pretty amped up about my first attempt at a sour beer and also my first attempt at brewing a 10 gallon batch. I think I'll be brewing a 12 gallon batch, split 6 to each carboy which should leave me over 5 gallons going into secondary. I want to make sure there is plenty around for periodic sampling after 6mo+ of aging.

So I've devised a recipe and it looks good to me but I'd like to hear some feedback if anyone has any. I emailed the guys over at Wyeastlab's for recommendations on handling the bugs and pretty much the big one was 'try not to go over 10 ibu's as the bugs are sensitive to hops'.

Although it's very likely I'll be brewing another batch next year for potential blending (and who knows, maybe later this year if the yeast is still available), I'm trying to shoot for something that might be a little bit between La Folie/Grand Cru and Duchess. I'm probably WAY off but am still amped anyways.

04-15-2008 Flanders #1

A ProMash Brewing Session Report
--------------------------------

Brewing Date: Tuesday April 15, 2008
Head Brewer: Mike Yasuma
Asst Brewer:
Recipe: Flanders #1

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 12.00 Wort Size (Gal): 12.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 24.00
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.75
Anticipated SRM: 16.0
Anticipated IBU: 11.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Actual OG: 1.055 Plato: 13.60
Actual FG: 1.012 Plato: 3.07

Alc by Weight: 4.44 by Volume: 5.68 From Measured Gravities.
ADF: 77.4 RDF 64.5 Apparent & Real Degree of Fermentation.

Actual Mash System Efficiency: 74 %
Anticipated Points From Mash: 55.75
Actual Points From Mash: 55.11


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
41.7 10.00 lbs. Munich Malt Belgium 1.038 8
33.3 8.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
8.3 2.00 lbs. Crystal 60L America 1.034 60
8.3 2.00 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
4.2 1.00 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
4.2 1.00 lbs. Wheat Malt Belgium 1.038 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 4.00 3.4 60 min.
1.00 oz. Tettnanger Pellet 4.50 7.6 60 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3763PC Roeselare Ale Blend

Single infusion mash at 152-154, ferment temps at 65d for 1 week then racking to secondary for long term aging.
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brahn
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Post by brahn »

The recipe sounds good to me. I'd ask Tyler about the yeast, though. He's told me that using just the Yeast/Bug blend didn't work very well and that you should ferment with a neutral yeast and then add the bugs.
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Post by Oskaar »

From what I remember of Flanders/Sours that I've made and been involved with making we used the California Ale Yeast, and kept the ferment at 65 or lower. After the primary was done we'd rack into another bucket and throw on the bugs, airlock it and go. Carboy works as well but the bucket seems to work better for the pellicle for some reason.. Let it go six to eight months minimum and let the pellicle drop. I remember that it was important to let the primary finish semi-sweet. Wish I had more to add.

When you gonna do this? Let me know dude!

Oskaar
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Rezzin
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Post by Rezzin »

I emailed the guys over at Wyeast regarding this technique and it was suggested that if I wanted to error on the side of Grand Cru I should try pitching the 3763 right from the start. Seeing how sourness is all a matter of perception and La Folie / Grand Cru don't taste over-the-top sour to me, I may skip the neutral yeast primary part. I've listed to Jamil's podcast on Flanders and he says he much prefers Rodenbach Classic over the Grand Cru and he also uses the neutral yeast start. I like mine a little more sour :)

I have absolutely NO idea how this will turn out but I figure since souring takes time, I could always rebrew this using the neutral yeast primary next time and use it to blend in case batch #1 gets too sour. Then I might really have a Duchess-ish type beer on hand!

Oskaar, I'll definitely let you know.

I'm shooting Tyler an email now - thanks for the reminder.
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Post by Rezzin »

Well I finally racked over to secondary today. Gravity was 1.020 after 6 days of fermenting at 65-67d. Here is the finally recipe I used:

Flanders #1

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 12.00 Wort Size (Gal): 12.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 25.50
Anticipated OG: 1.056 Plato: 13.73
Anticipated SRM: 17.7
Anticipated IBU: 11.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 71 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
58.8 15.00 lbs. Munich Malt Belgium 1.038 8
19.6 5.00 lbs. Pilsener Belgium 1.037 2
2.9 0.75 lbs. Crystal 40L America 1.034 40
6.9 1.75 lbs. Aromatic Malt Belgium 1.036 25
7.8 2.00 lbs. Special B Malt Belgian 1.030 120
3.9 1.00 lbs. Wheat Malt Belgium 1.038 2

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0.50 oz. Hallertauer Pellet 4.00 3.4 60 min.
1.00 oz. Tettnanger Pellet 4.50 7.6 60 min.


Yeast
-----
Wyeast 1056
WYeast 3763PC Roeselare Ale Blend

I pitched both Wyeast 1056 and 3763 at the same time. At racking, the aroma was quite fruity. The hydro sample was odd but I figured as much.

Now it's a matter of waiting a year!

I'll update with pellicle pics once it forms... not sure how long it takes to form but I'll be sure to record the progress.




:D :D :D
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Post by Rezzin »

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe this is the first signs of the pellicle forming. I'm a bit surprised at how soon this started (if it even has) - I was anticipating at least a couple weeks before I saw anything.

Although both show signs, the one with the dowel seems to have more. I can't wait to see the nasty goodness all over! :twisted:
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Post by Rezzin »

I took a peak at the progress and was pleasantly surprised to see that in the carboy with the oak dowel, there is a pronounced pellicle forming. The carboy that only has an airlock has the beginning signs of it, but definitely not as much. Should be interesting to watch things progress over the next several months. Fortunately, that pellicle looks absolutely disgusting to me so I won't be the least bit curious to taste until it has hopefully dropped in a year or so.

You can see the difference here:

Image

This the air locked carboy:

Image
Image

Here are a few pics of the carboy with the oak dowel:

Image
Image
Image

And so the freak show begins...

:D :D :D
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Post by spkrtoy »

Bring it on!
Nice going Mike.
Cheers,
Lyn
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Post by Rezzin »

Well, the airlocked carboy has finally thrown up a nice pellicle layer. The sweat from the inside of the carboy's is gone and so it's easier to see the nasty bubbly goodness clearly. I took some pics in case anyone was interested:

Image

Here is a closer view of the funk in the airlocked carboy.

Image

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Post by kevinham »

That looks disgusting and wonderful at the same time.
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Post by Beer Ya-Yas »

My batch of Flander's fermented out in primary to 1.012 using Cal Ale yeast. I racked into a 5gal. carboy and pitched a vial of bugs back in January 2008. I have very little headspace. I am using the oak chair leg. Nothing is happening. No sign of a pelicle. No sign of anything except the exact same wort I transfered 6 months ago.

Is this unusual?
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Post by Rezzin »

Hmm.. This is my first go at it so I'm not really sure. The carboy with the dowel threw up a pellicle within a month after racking to secondary and the airlock only carboy about another month or two after that. I racked over when my gravity hit 1.020 so I had still had some residual sugars for the bugs to eat. Perhaps there's not enough food in there for the bugs to chew on? Other than Tyler and PMR on this board, I don't know if anyone else has much experience with wild yeast / sour beers.

You may want to post on another board but perhaps adding some fermentables (or pitching more bugs) might help kick things into gear? 6 mo seems much longer than most that I've seen to have that nastiness form. Perhaps someone with more experience can chime in.
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Post by Oskaar »

Beer Ya-Yas,

Check your pH, the wert may be too acidic for your bugs to flourish.

Also, please post up your recipe and process for us to take a look at as there may be process or formulation issues.

Cheers,

Oskaar
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Post by Rezzin »

Just a little update in case anyone is interested.

It's been another 2 mo since my last update and there's been a little change. The pellicle in the airlock only carboy has dropped pretty much and the one with the oak dowel still seems pretty thick. I'm tempted to sample the airlock only one but I think I'll show some patience and wait at least 6mo before sampling.

Image

A closer pic of the airlock only batch:

Image

A closer pic of the oak dowel batch:

Image

It makes sense what's happening but I'm surprised the pellicle dropped so soon on the airlock only batch.

The wait is killing em - I'm still lousy at this patience thing :)
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Post by brew captain »

That looked so rank the other day under your stairs Mike that I had nightmares! Seriously! I don't think I am cut out for making sour beers or lambics for that matter. If I did I would just doctor up a batch with some lactic acid and skip the floating "white mold" phase!!!

Good luck!!


Cheers!
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